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  August 31, 2019 - 8:58am
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  stimpy88 wrote:

We wont see anything change for tvOS 13, as it's finished. However a beta of 13.1 should be out soon, so maybe that will solve this... With luck...

Regarding tvOS 13.1 beta, do you guess that (would be natural after iOS 13.1 beta) or you know it from an internal Apple source e.g.?

  September 2, 2019 - 3:52am
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  EssamB wrote:

Regarding tvOS 13.1 beta, do you guess that (would be natural after iOS 13.1 beta) or you know it from an internal Apple source e.g.?

I know it because I'm now testing 13.1, and if Apple are still beta testing iOS13, then it is at a very low activity level, and will be only one more beta release before the 10th, as they will need the RTM to be pre-installed on their new products launching in 2 weeks time.

Apple always address bugs in tvOS at the beginning of a new beta series (usually beta 1 and 2), and not during the end of a beta round, which is why nothing much changes on tvOS after the first beta, so unless it's a typo or something very, very minor, it wont get fixed until another point release, such as tvOS 13.1 or 13.2 etc.

It also does not help that tvOS is a very, very low priority for Apple.

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  September 2, 2019 - 3:58am
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  stimpy88 wrote:

I know it because I'm now testing 13.1, and if Apple are still beta testing iOS13, then it is at a very low activity level, and will be only one more beta release before the 10th, as they will need the RTM to be pre-installed on their new products launching in 2 weeks time.

It also does not help that tvOS is a very, very low priority for Apple.

Are you now testing tvOS 13.1?

  September 2, 2019 - 6:56am
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  EssamB wrote:

Are you now testing tvOS 13.1?

No, the dev beta of 13.1 is not out yet. I hear this week, if there is nothing significant remaining on iOS/tvOS 13. We will know by Friday.

AppleTV 4K - tvOS 13 Beta - Sony KDL-55W905A 240Hz QLED 1080p HDTV - Pioneer SC-LX87 Receiver - QNAP TS-251 NAS with QTS v4.3.4 40TB via NFS - Synology DS109+ NAS with DSM v4.2 4TB via NFS - 110Mb/s symmetric fibre Internet connection

  September 2, 2019 - 8:08am
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  stimpy88 wrote:

No, the dev beta of 13.1 is not out yet. I hear this week, if there is nothing significant remaining on iOS/tvOS 13. We will know by Friday.

This is what I thought, that’s why I was wondering since you did not say which OS Smile

  September 2, 2019 - 9:32am
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  stimpy88 wrote:

No, the dev beta of 13.1 is not out yet. I hear this week, if there is nothing significant remaining on iOS/tvOS 13. We will know by Friday.

There is a lot of work left in iOS 13 and 13.1:

https://twitter.com/LeoNatan/status/1168286477...

😂

  September 2, 2019 - 11:58am
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Have the same issue with John Wick 3 (4k). It plays in HDR (it switches from default Dolby Vision to HDR). If I set ATV4k to HDR instead of Dolby Vision, it still stutters. But if I play the movie with Infuse Pro 5, there is no stuttering, but unfortunatelly it won't switch to HDR...

  September 2, 2019 - 2:24pm
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  james wrote:

Quick update.

We've been working to track this down, and it appears to be a bug in tvOS 13 which is affecting a subset of HDR videos played in Infuse (and other players).

We are working with Apple to provide them with the details they need to resolve this, and will post any updates here.

Thanks for your patience.

Is the bug affecting the frame rate matching?

  September 4, 2019 - 11:17am
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New TvOS 13 beta build 17J5573a released. Problem not fixed.

  September 4, 2019 - 11:49am
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I have several videos bought from iTunes. The issue is non-existent there; framerate-matching and HDR. While I haven't attempted reverse engineering the iOS 13 version of the player (probably not possible at this stage), the previous ones used VideoToolbox. What's the difference?

  September 4, 2019 - 1:25pm
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  LeoNatan wrote:

I have several videos bought from iTunes. The issue is non-existent there; framerate-matching and HDR. While I haven't attempted reverse engineering the iOS 13 version of the player (probably not possible at this stage), the previous ones used VideoToolbox. What's the difference?

From my understanding players having problems do not use videotoolbox and are either using Metal or the deprecated OpenGL ES.

  September 4, 2019 - 1:43pm
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  JarvisMeier wrote:

From my understanding players having problems do not use videotoolbox and are either using Metal or the deprecated OpenGL ES.

Do you imply that AVFoundation is causing this issue?
Which are the players that do not stutter under tvOS 13 beta?

  September 4, 2019 - 2:06pm
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AVFoundation is a high level API.

AVFoundation uses VideoToolbox to decode video.

So Infuse does not use VideoToolbox? Are you sure? As far as I am aware, accessing the dedicated H264/H265 decoding hardware is not possible any other way. If using Metal to decode, it is still much less efficient than the dedicated hardware.

I'd think they would use VT to decode video, and then render the frames on a Metal surface. That makes much more sense to me.

  September 4, 2019 - 2:13pm
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  LeoNatan wrote:

AVFoundation is a high level API.

AVFoundation uses VideoToolbox to decode video.

So Infuse does not use VideoToolbox? Are you sure? As far as I am aware, accessing the dedicated H264/H265 decoding hardware is not possible any other way. If using Metal to decode, it is still much less efficient than the dedicated hardware.

I'd think they would use VT to decode video, and then render the frames on a Metal surface. That makes much more sense to me.

I don’t know what infuse is using.

EDIT: I think I wasn’t meant by the above reply, may be a reply should include a quotation or at least a hint to the post it’s replying to!

  September 5, 2019 - 3:09am
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I replied to both of you. Two posts above mine are enough of a context that a quote isn't necessary in my opinion.

  September 5, 2019 - 4:15am
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  LeoNatan wrote:

There is a lot of work left in iOS 13 and 13.1:

https://twitter.com/LeoNatan/status/1168286477...

😂

iOS/tvOS 13.0.0 is done. There is simply not enough time left before the new devices launch to fix everything, unless its a typo that's easy to find, fix and test. Apple have focused on 13.1 now, and 13.2 is in its early stages. I think iOS 13 is going to be one of those releases thats not great until the 13.2.x or .3.x release.

I just hope that we don't have to wait until iOS 13.3 or 14.0.0 for this bug to get addressed.

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  September 5, 2019 - 7:37am
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  LeoNatan wrote:

I replied to both of you. Two posts above mine are enough of a context that a quote isn't necessary in my opinion.

If not a quotation (it could sometimes be too long), then perhaps a @xyz, @klm would be enough Smile

  September 6, 2019 - 3:04am
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  stimpy88 wrote:

iOS/tvOS 13.0.0 is done. There is simply not enough time left before the new devices launch to fix everything, unless its a typo that's easy to find, fix and test. Apple have focused on 13.1 now, and 13.2 is in its early stages. I think iOS 13 is going to be one of those releases thats not great until the 13.2.x or .3.x release.

I just hope that we don't have to wait until iOS 13.3 or 14.0.0 for this bug to get addressed.

If Firecore are using a non-standard decoder and player views, I find it somewhat irresponsible to put the blame squarely on Apple.

  September 6, 2019 - 3:22am
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  LeoNatan wrote:

If Firecore are using a non-standard decoder and player views, I find it somewhat irresponsible to put the blame squarely on Apple.

Apple is changing their tvos, and may not give all solutions to developers ... ???
and infuse uses Video Codec AVFoundation and it's standard.
I'm not sure of what I'm saying

  September 6, 2019 - 5:10am
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  sethx wrote:

Apple is changing their tvos, and may not give all solutions to developers ... ???
and infuse uses Video Codec AVFoundation and it's standard.
I'm not sure of what I'm saying

No worries, whether it’s apple or infuse, this issue will be fixed by the developers; it’s in their own interest!

  September 6, 2019 - 5:47am
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  LeoNatan wrote:

If Firecore are using a non-standard decoder and player views, I find it somewhat irresponsible to put the blame squarely on Apple.

It was Firecore themselves who said it was an Apple bug, posted in this very thread! So please get your facts right before calling me irresponsible.

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  September 6, 2019 - 7:49am
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  stimpy88 wrote:

It was Firecore themselves who said it was an Apple bug, posted in this very thread! So please get your facts right before calling me irresponsible.

It was mentioned here that they are not using VideoToolbox by someone. If this is true, it means they are using a third party decoder.
VideoToolbox works, as evident by Apple's own video apps, which do not suffer from this problem.

So I was not saying you are irresponsible, but perhaps the developer. There have been many times where I've seen developers blame bugs on Apple's changes. Sure, Apple's software is very buggy in the last few years. But since not all players are exhibiting these issues, I am not convinced fully that this is the case.

Again, I don't have the source code for Infuse. I just have 10 years of experience with people (including myself) accusing Apple for our own non-standard implementations breaking when a new OS is released.

  September 6, 2019 - 7:50am
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  sethx wrote:

Apple is changing their tvos, and may not give all solutions to developers ... ???
and infuse uses Video Codec AVFoundation and it's standard.
I'm not sure of what I'm saying

AVFoundation is not a video codec.

  September 6, 2019 - 8:21am
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  LeoNatan wrote:

AVFoundation is not a video codec.

the other software 'M ..' to specified 'fix: DVDVideoCodecAVFoundation micro stutter

and beta 3 does not change anything

  September 6, 2019 - 8:58am
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  LeoNatan wrote:

It was mentioned here that they are not using VideoToolbox by someone. If this is true, it means they are using a third party decoder.
VideoToolbox works, as evident by Apple's own video apps, which do not suffer from this problem.

So I was not saying you are irresponsible, but perhaps the developer. There have been many times where I've seen developers blame bugs on Apple's changes. Sure, Apple's software is very buggy in the last few years. But since not all players are exhibiting these issues, I am not convinced fully that this is the case.

Again, I don't have the source code for Infuse. I just have 10 years of experience with people (including myself) accusing Apple for our own non-standard implementations breaking when a new OS is released.

I agree. When there is a problem, it's common to blame the host OS. Infuse has many times in the past had problems with stuttering, and I seem to recall that they did say that they had swapped out their own playback/decode logic, for Apples, since iOS12. But as you say, unless you can dig in to the code, you cannot tell exactly what is happening.

I have noticed however, that the UI which is displayed while playing back a movie is the old Apple style, and all the other TV streaming apps I use have a much more modern rounded looking interface ever since tvOS 13 has been in beta, so maybe something not quite "by the book" is going on.

But regarding your comment of Apples own playback works flawlessly, well I'm sure it does, as the files are nothing like a direct rip of a UHD BluRay's video stream. The bandwidth requirements are tiny for an iTunes encoded file, something like a quarter of the requirements used to playback a full video stream. Playing back a 70GB direct backup of a UHD stresses many more aspects of the hardware compared to playing back a 10GB "4K" iTunes file, encoded with simpler levels and tiers.

It is very interesting however, that other media players on tvOS seem to have found workarounds, but I have no idea how they work, and if they are decoding and making use of all the same features that Infuse does. After all, if they disregard HDR, and Infuse doesn't, then its not a fair comparison.

AppleTV 4K - tvOS 13 Beta - Sony KDL-55W905A 240Hz QLED 1080p HDTV - Pioneer SC-LX87 Receiver - QNAP TS-251 NAS with QTS v4.3.4 40TB via NFS - Synology DS109+ NAS with DSM v4.2 4TB via NFS - 110Mb/s symmetric fibre Internet connection

  September 6, 2019 - 9:37am
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Apple changed something in the AvFoundation framework and poorly documented /or bug in the framework.
There is a workaround and firecore is working on that.

  September 6, 2019 - 9:48am
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  dvd2000 wrote:

Apple changed something in the AvFoundation framework and poorly documented /or bug in the framework.
There is a workaround and firecore is working on that.

Yes that's exactly it

  September 6, 2019 - 10:29am
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  stimpy88 wrote:

I agree. When there is a problem, it's common to blame the host OS. Infuse has many times in the past had problems with stuttering, and I seem to recall that they did say that they had swapped out their own playback/decode logic, for Apples, since iOS12. But as you say, unless you can dig in to the code, you cannot tell exactly what is happening.

I have noticed however, that the UI which is displayed while playing back a movie is the old Apple style, and all the other TV streaming apps I use have a much more modern rounded looking interface ever since tvOS 13 has been in beta, so maybe something not quite "by the book" is going on.

But regarding your comment of Apples own playback works flawlessly, well I'm sure it does, as the files are nothing like a direct rip of a UHD BluRay's video stream. The bandwidth requirements are tiny for an iTunes encoded file, something like a quarter of the requirements used to playback a full video stream. Playing back a 70GB direct backup of a UHD stresses many more aspects of the hardware compared to playing back a 10GB "4K" iTunes file, encoded with simpler levels and tiers.

It is very interesting however, that other media players on tvOS seem to have found workarounds, but I have no idea how they work, and if they are decoding and making use of all the same features that Infuse does. After all, if they disregard HDR, and Infuse doesn't, then its not a fair comparison.

The only one that disregards HDR is VLC. Plex doesn’t and plays smooth enough for me.

Infuse uses a custom player (unrelated to decoder/renderer). The default Apple player displays time remaining on second touch of the remote trackpad, while Infuse doesn’t. That’s fine, as they have their own preview, for example, while the stock Apple player’s view hierarchy is locked down, if I recall correctly.

It’s also not an issue of bandwidth, I think. I’ve tried playing WEBDL files, which also stutter on Infuse.

  September 6, 2019 - 10:56am
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  LeoNatan wrote:

The only one that disregards HDR is VLC. Plex doesn’t and plays smooth enough for me.

Infuse uses a custom player (unrelated to decoder/renderer). The default Apple player displays time remaining on second touch of the remote trackpad, while Infuse doesn’t. That’s fine, as they have their own preview, for example, while the stock Apple player’s view hierarchy is locked down, if I recall correctly.

It’s also not an issue of bandwidth, I think. I’ve tried playing WEBDL files, which also stutter on Infuse.

it has been explained that the reason is AVFoundation which is common to M **. and M *** fixed the problem with AVFoundation 24h ago (FIX: Video Codec AVFoundation)
we explained that the reason is not the video bitrate, it is the profiles used. The Main 10 @ L5 profile works, the 5.1 not
and firecore knows the problem and there is a change in the beta of tvos with AVFoundation. James explained a long time ago, after it's probably hard to find, I'm not a developer Smile
(google traduction)

  September 8, 2019 - 1:41am
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@LeoNatan
Did you try Plex 2.7 with tvOS 13 beta 9?
Here, it refuses to Direct play 4K HDR with the native player as it used to do, transcodes to 1080p and tells me the server isn’t powerful enough 😄
It seems that AVFoundation has changed a lot in the last tvOS beta!
TvOS 13 is obviously not steady yet.