284 posts / 0 new / Last post
  February 13, 2018 - 6:09am
IMWhizzle's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 136
Kudos: 30
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

I do not have a Dolby Vision TV to try that, but it is also possible that if you set the video output to Dolby Vision, disable match dynamic range and enable frame rame matching it will work. (that is assuming that the issue is only with HDR10 output, and not with Dolby Vision output)

I already tried this, but it results in lip sync issues when Dolby Vision mode is engaged. Not only with infuse but also with the native Netflix app for example. Doesn’t matter what content I’m playing.

  February 13, 2018 - 6:15am
KOKOtm's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 31
Kudos: 2
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

TL;DR it's an Apple TV issue. Choose "reset video settings" in the Apple TV's audio and video settings, do not touch any video setting (except match dynamic range, which you can turn on) and you'll get a perfect picture.

Pay attention! If you do that, you disable Dolby Vision in iTunes and the Movie will be played as HDR10. I also tried it out, and checked Playback Info in my Denon AV. At least it works for forcing 10Bit Output.

But interesting finding. As long Dolby Vision isn't fixed in LG OLED, at least the movies can be watched as HDR10.

  February 13, 2018 - 6:25am
pino8579's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Kudos: 1

FYI, I have an LG B7 and ATV with chroma subsampling setting 4:2:2 and match frame rate ON and I do not see any waves or similar defects at 3:30min of Blade Runner 2049. Also at min 1h41m i do not see any particular defect.

  February 13, 2018 - 6:38am
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  pino8579 wrote:

FYI, I have an LG B7 and ATV with chroma subsampling setting 4:2:2 and match frame rate ON and I do not see any waves or similar defects at 3:30min of Blade Runner 2049. Also at min 1h41m i do not see any particular defect.

Good. Is this with Dolby Vision or HDR10 output ? (which your TV can show)

  February 13, 2018 - 6:52am
pino8579's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Kudos: 1
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

Good. Is this with Dolby Vision or HDR10 output ? (which your TV can show)

HDR10

  February 13, 2018 - 7:46am
makaus's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11
Kudos: 0

I have some HDR calibration patterns on my computer, i have used them to check black level, contrast and other stuff through Infuse.

Before the bug with the line in the middle, i could see a big amount of the black level boxes in the pattern, when the bug came i could still see the most boxes.
Now when i have the new update, the pattern is really messed up and it just cuts the black boxes without any transition, before there was a graduation from 80 to 60 and it cuts slowly until below black at 60, now it cuts at 70 without any transition, so i cant even see near black levels, whatever i do with black level settings on the tv.

This pattern works perfectly if i put on a USB and play with the TV default video app. Something is wrong with Infuse and it cuts black color, before it gets to the “REAL” black 64 color.

Link to patterns: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-cali...

  February 13, 2018 - 8:12am
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  makaus wrote:

I have some HDR calibration patterns on my computer, i have used them to check black level, contrast and other stuff through Infuse.

Before the bug with the line in the middle, i could see a big amount of the black level boxes in the pattern, when the bug came i could still see the most boxes.
Now when i have the new update, the pattern is really messed up and it just cuts the black boxes without any transition, before there was a graduation from 80 to 60 and it cuts slowly until below black at 60, now it cuts at 70 without any transition, so i cant even see near black levels, whatever i do with black level settings on the tv.

This pattern works perfectly if i put on a USB and play with the TV default video app. Something is wrong with Infuse and it cuts black color, before it gets to the “REAL” black 64 color.

Link to patterns: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-cali...

Which of the patterns are you using?

  February 13, 2018 - 8:18am
makaus's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11
Kudos: 0

The black level patterns.

  February 13, 2018 - 9:24am
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  makaus wrote:

I have some HDR calibration patterns on my computer, i have used them to check black level, contrast and other stuff through Infuse.

Before the bug with the line in the middle, i could see a big amount of the black level boxes in the pattern, when the bug came i could still see the most boxes.
Now when i have the new update, the pattern is really messed up and it just cuts the black boxes without any transition, before there was a graduation from 80 to 60 and it cuts slowly until below black at 60, now it cuts at 70 without any transition, so i cant even see near black levels, whatever i do with black level settings on the tv.

This pattern works perfectly if i put on a USB and play with the TV default video app. Something is wrong with Infuse and it cuts black color, before it gets to the “REAL” black 64 color.

Link to patterns: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-cali...

There is definitely one or more issue here.
I made iTunes-friendly versions of the black level patterns (no re-encoding) - you can download them here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yvb8i84qlxh4b2i/AAC...

For simplification I only used the 03 black-level-v3.m4v file but the results are the same with the others.
The manual attached to the patterns says that gradations 64 and below should not be visible, but 66 and up should, in good lighting conditions (in the dark).
Here's what I observed, in not so good conditions and with a TV that has not so good black levels:
- using the TV's native media player: 66 and up are visible (nominal),
- using Infuse on Apple TV 4K: 84 and up are visible,
- using MrMC on Apple TV 4K: 84 and up are visible,
- using the "Computers" app on Apple TV 4K (through iTunes homesharing): 72 and up are visible.

So there is an Apple TV issue (unless it's my TV, but my money is on an Apple TV issue), since even Apple's native player clips blacks below 72.
And there is an additional issue which Infuse shares with MrMC: Blacks below 84 are clipped!!

One more Apple TV video bug I opened with Apple.

Frown

  February 13, 2018 - 11:32am
IMWhizzle's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 136
Kudos: 30
  KOKOtm wrote:

Pay attention! If you do that, you disable Dolby Vision in iTunes and the Movie will be played as HDR10. I also tried it out, and checked Playback Info in my Denon AV. At least it works for forcing 10Bit Output.

But interesting finding. As long Dolby Vision isn't fixed in LG OLED, at least the movies can be watched as HDR10.

For now it’s a good compromise since Dolby Vision content goes hand in hand with lip sync issues on the ATV.

  February 13, 2018 - 11:54am
vinz2k's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Kudos: 2
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

There is definitely one or more issue here.
I made iTunes-friendly versions of the black level patterns (no re-encoding) - you can download them here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yvb8i84qlxh4b2i/AAC...

For simplification I only used the 03 black-level-v3.m4v file but the results are the same with the others.
The manual attached to the patterns says that gradations 64 and below should not be visible, but 66 and up should, in good lighting conditions (in the dark).
Here's what I observed, in not so good conditions and with a TV that has not so good black levels:
- using the TV's native media player: 66 and up are visible (nominal),
- using Infuse on Apple TV 4K: 84 and up are visible,
- using MrMC on Apple TV 4K: 84 and up are visible,
- using the "Computers" app on Apple TV 4K (through iTunes homesharing): 72 and up are visible.

So there is an Apple TV issue (unless it's my TV, but my money is on an Apple TV issue), since even Apple's native player clips blacks below 72.
And there is an additional issue which Infuse shares with MrMC: Blacks below 84 are clipped!!

One more Apple TV video bug I opened with Apple.

Frown

Hello,

Same here :

https://firecore.com/forum/topic/19902

Regards

  February 13, 2018 - 12:21pm
makaus's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11
Kudos: 0

This is so weird, how can Apple make a product which shows HDR, but when showing HDR, the picture is not in “perfect” HDR format?

Im talking about the black skipping, if it even clips black with the native player from iTunes(from computer to Apple TV).

How do we know if we are getting the correct settings from iTunes Movies now?(the 4K HDR movies we bought)

  February 13, 2018 - 12:53pm
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  makaus wrote:

This is so weird, how can Apple make a product which shows HDR, but when showing HDR, the picture is not in “perfect” HDR format?

Im talking about the black skipping, if it even clips black with the native player from iTunes(from computer to Apple TV).

How do we know if we are getting the correct settings from iTunes Movies now?(the 4K HDR movies we bought)

Yep. I am pretty upset about the Apple TV 4K video quality too.
Some issues might be TV-related (like only some TVs have issues with 12 bit video).
What brand/model of TV do you have?

  February 13, 2018 - 1:00pm
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37
  makaus wrote:

This is so weird, how can Apple make a product which shows HDR, but when showing HDR, the picture is not in “perfect” HDR format?

Im talking about the black skipping, if it even clips black with the native player from iTunes(from computer to Apple TV).

How do we know if we are getting the correct settings from iTunes Movies now?(the 4K HDR movies we bought)

Define ‘perfect’ HDR format. Ask any calibrator and they’ll tell you that there’s really no such thing at the moment. There are no consumer TVs which can track HDR modes with anything like reasonable accuracy. Every single TV model is applying a tone mapping curve which either results in a dim picture or significant clipping. Until we get TVs capable of the full dynamic range required, every HDR picture is a compromise of sorts.

  February 13, 2018 - 1:03pm
IMWhizzle's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 136
Kudos: 30
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

Yep. I am pretty upset about the Apple TV 4K video quality too.
Some issues might be TV-related (like only some TVs have issues with 12 bit video).
What brand/model of TV do you have?

I have the B6 and I must say, playing with the reset video settings and match frame rate turned on I wasn’t happy with the result. It looked like the display was t catching up, with green lines and everything. Also I suddenly lost details in the picture in black areas. The cables are good. Then I reset the video settings again and chose for HDR 60hz with chroma 4:2:2. Everything looked good again.

It’s up to Apple to make it right. Are there any developers active on this board who can ask Apple more about this issue?

  February 13, 2018 - 1:15pm
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  astirling wrote:

Define ‘perfect’ HDR format. Ask any calibrator and they’ll tell you that there’s really no such thing at the moment. There are no consumer TVs which can track HDR modes with anything like reasonable accuracy. Every single TV model is applying a tone mapping curve which either results in a dim picture or significant clipping. Until we get TVs capable of the full dynamic range required, every HDR picture is a compromise of sorts.

I agree there is no perfect picture.

However, I expect the Apple TV 4K to pass a video signal unaltered to the TV, including HDR metadata.
Unless there is another explanation, having blacks from HDR video clipped by the Apple TV is not acceptable.

I am disappointed. I expect more from Apple.

  February 13, 2018 - 1:25pm
mrrobotoplus's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 83
Kudos: 7

After the new update a massive problem here with HDR.
My set is a Samsung KS8000. HDR in iTunes is perfect.

Attachments: 
  February 13, 2018 - 1:26pm
makaus's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11
Kudos: 0
  astirling wrote:

Define ‘perfect’ HDR format. Ask any calibrator and they’ll tell you that there’s really no such thing at the moment. There are no consumer TVs which can track HDR modes with anything like reasonable accuracy. Every single TV model is applying a tone mapping curve which either results in a dim picture or significant clipping. Until we get TVs capable of the full dynamic range required, every HDR picture is a compromise of sorts.

I define perfect HDR as my TV would have handled it, and not a skewed picture with different HDR-data from every media player/console.

The way my TV process HDR, have to be the best way for my tv, and the TV cant rely on two or more different HDR signals from the same file from five different players.

If you mean that this is the way to do it, we will also have to calibrate/change settings for five different picture profiles, to make up for the difference every player makes to the HDR signal.

  February 13, 2018 - 1:41pm
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  mrrobotoplus wrote:

After the new update a massive problem here with HDR.
My set is a Samsung KS8000. HDR in iTunes is perfect.

Looks like you are running tvOS 11.3 beta and that your Apple TV is set up to output SDR, not HDR.
tvOS 11.3 beta 2 has issues with HDR-to-SDR conversion, which explains the issue with Infuse.
When output is set up to SDR, iTunes uses a SDR medium so does not exhibit the conversion issue.

You might have to enable HDR input for the HDMI input to which your Apple TV is connected on your TV (called "HDMI UHD Color", then make sure your Apple TV is set up to output HDR (HDR formats should appear in the video settings).

  February 13, 2018 - 2:45pm
makaus's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11
Kudos: 0

Im just putting this here: https://mrmc.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=150...

Apples fault...

  February 14, 2018 - 12:11am
vinz2k's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Kudos: 2
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

There is definitely one or more issue here.
I made iTunes-friendly versions of the black level patterns (no re-encoding) - you can download them here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yvb8i84qlxh4b2i/AAC...

For simplification I only used the 03 black-level-v3.m4v file but the results are the same with the others.
The manual attached to the patterns says that gradations 64 and below should not be visible, but 66 and up should, in good lighting conditions (in the dark).
Here's what I observed, in not so good conditions and with a TV that has not so good black levels:
- using the TV's native media player: 66 and up are visible (nominal),
- using Infuse on Apple TV 4K: 84 and up are visible,
- using MrMC on Apple TV 4K: 84 and up are visible,
- using the "Computers" app on Apple TV 4K (through iTunes homesharing): 72 and up are visible.

So there is an Apple TV issue (unless it's my TV, but my money is on an Apple TV issue), since even Apple's native player clips blacks below 72.
And there is an additional issue which Infuse shares with MrMC: Blacks below 84 are clipped!!

One more Apple TV video bug I opened with Apple.

Frown

Any link of the apple bug where we can add our « +1 » feedback ?

Any answer from Apple ?

Thanks

  February 14, 2018 - 2:26am
davidfml's picture
Offline
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Kudos: 0
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

Same here. Go to 1h41mn into Blade Runner 2049 (outdoor Las Vegas scene) and it's another awful experience.

TL;DR it's an Apple TV issue. Choose "reset video settings" in the Apple TV's audio and video settings, do not touch any video setting (except match dynamic range, which you can turn on) and you'll get a perfect picture.

Long story:
The Apple TV 4K outputs 12-bit video whenever it can for HDR10 and some TVs do not handle it well, although the video format complies with the HDMI 2.0 spec and they advertise in their EDID that they support it.
- 2160p24 (or p25 or p30) HDR10 video is always output as 12 bit.
- 2160p60 or p50 HDR10 is output as 12 bit if you have at least once activated 4:2:2 chroma subsampling (until you reset video settings).

I thought this was only for some 2015 and 2016 TVs, but it seems your 2017 LG OLED has the same issue with 12-bit HDR10 video (unless it's your receiver- have you tried without it?)

My TV being HDR10 only, I have the same issue with Blade Runner 2049 from the iTunes Store.
But you probably do not have it in Dolby Vision.
If you force the Apple TV's output to HDR10, you will see the same issue in other apps such as Netflix or Amazon Prime. You can try for example episode 1 of Godless, around 32'25", where there is a blue sky.

This was also an issue for some UHD Blu-Ray players, and, after a petition, Panasonic introduced a 10 bit output mode for its players.
I filed a bug report with Apple, but unless more people complain, I see little chance that they solve it.

Attached is the characteristics of the Apple TV's output in 2160p24 HDR10 (there is only one chroma subsampling setting in that resolution).
I made a more detailed post here https://firecore.com/comment/81455#comment-81455

IMWhizzle, what is your TV brand/model?

Yesterday I tried this:
- Reset video settings
- Turn on match dynamic range but not match frame rate
- Chroma 4:2:0
Fog scene on Blade Runner has right colour, and also blue sky in other videos, but has stuttering.
If I turn on match frame rate, stuttering disappear but fog scenes have bad colour.

I suppose this is because my receiver still didn’t receive Dolby Vision update, because if I connect ATV directly to LG Tv, image is Ok.

LG OLED 65C7V
DENON AVR-X2200W
Wharfedale Diamond 220
Synology DS118
Apple TV 4K 32Gb

  February 14, 2018 - 3:18am
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  davidfml wrote:

Yesterday I tried this:
- Reset video settings
- Turn on match dynamic range but not match frame rate
- Chroma 4:2:0
Fog scene on Blade Runner has right colour, and also blue sky in other videos, but has stuttering.
If I turn on match frame rate, stuttering disappear but fog scenes have bad colour.

I suppose this is because my receiver still didn’t receive Dolby Vision update, because if I connect ATV directly to LG Tv, image is Ok.

Good news that the 2017 LG OLEDs (as confirmed by another person in this forum) do not have an issue with 12 bit HDR10.
I understand you cannot use Dolby Vision with your receiver, so you must be using HDR10 for now. If you were able to force the Apple TV's output to Dolby Vision (with match dynamic range off), results might be different.
So the issue with your receiver in the middle is with 12 bit HDR10. If the Apple TV output 10 bit for 2160p24 HDR10 (which they can do with a better quality than the format they currently output), the issue would go away.

  February 14, 2018 - 3:59am
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  vinz2k wrote:

Any link of the apple bug where we can add our « +1 » feedback ?

Any answer from Apple ?

Thanks

No feedback yet from Apple.
Bug reports are only shared with Apple so I cannot send a link.

So I created a post on Apple's support forums about this issue: https://discussions.apple.com/message/33023183...
Please go there and add your voice Smile
The more people complain about it, the more chance we have that Apple takes care of this issuer.

Update: Apple removed my post saying it was deemed asnot constructive. First time this happens to me in 20 years! (I was using a new ID though)

  February 14, 2018 - 4:29am
IMWhizzle's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 136
Kudos: 30
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

No feedback yet from Apple.
Bug reports are only shared with Apple so I cannot send a link.

So I created a post on Apple's support forums about this issue: https://discussions.apple.com/message/33023183...
Please go there and add your voice Smile
The more people complain about it, the more chance we have that Apple takes care of this issuer.

Update: Apple removed my post saying it was deemed asnot constructive. First time this happens to me in 20 years! (I was using a new ID though)

Are they denying it?

  February 14, 2018 - 4:33am
jrmec.49364's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 243
Kudos: 36
  IMWhizzle wrote:

Are they denying it?

Nope. Just removed the post.

  February 14, 2018 - 9:13am
vinz2k's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Kudos: 2
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

Nope. Just removed the post.

Do you think we could work together and trying to explain the problem to apple ?

  February 15, 2018 - 3:33pm
IMWhizzle's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 136
Kudos: 30

Ok, I’ve noticed a problematic issue involving targeting a perfect hdr picture.

When I use the match settings and try to play a remux file from an uhd bluray the colors aren’t right. It’s because the ATV is outputting 12 bit colors somehow. It’s fixed when I reset the video settings on the ATV (advise from a fellow member on this forum) and only turn on match dynamic range (leave match frame rate off). Don’t touch the chroma settings otherwise the picture would be wrong again. I’m taking about wrong colors and sort of noise in certain areas on the screen. Those disappear when you take the steps above.

I’m using an Oled B6 from LG and a Marantz 7011 in between. Content is being played from the latest Infuse Pro app with the HDR fix.

Weird things going on in the ATV video settings. Can people confirm this? I would like to know if it’s my gear or the ATV.

  February 15, 2018 - 9:07pm
ix400's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 36
Kudos: 3
  vinz2k wrote:

Do you think we could work together and trying to explain the problem to apple ?

Why don’t you try to explain the problem to LG? 🤔
12bit output is adequate for HDR, hence the problem is not caused by Apple.

  February 18, 2018 - 6:03am
pino8579's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Kudos: 1
  jrmec.49364 wrote:

Nope. Just removed the post.

Sorry for asking on this forum, is there any other forum where the black levels bug is discussed? Is there any thought on what can happen with Dolby Vision contents, for example played with Netflix app or from the store?