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  November 26, 2017 - 2:37pm
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Ok. Here’s a YouTube link to what I’m seeing at 24hz. The problem only occurs in Infuse not the native player. Also, it goes away if I force 60hz. It doesn’t occur if I play the same file at 24hz on my shield TV. My tv is an LG E6 oled

The video is hard to see because it’s so dark but the flickering is visible in the extreme right of the image. Notice that the picture is paused at this moment so it’s not grain crawl. In person you can tell it’s not anyway because it’s a whole section pulsing in unison.

https://youtu.be/aoUlE_NYJuQ

  November 26, 2017 - 6:52pm
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Any update on this issue? got the same here

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  November 27, 2017 - 12:34am
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  cecemf wrote:

Any update on this issue? got the same here

A temporary workaround is to put noise reduction to low in your TV picture settings. I actually can’t see a difference between low and off in terms of picture quality but it does remove the flickering for some reason.

  November 27, 2017 - 12:38am
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  astirling wrote:

A temporary workaround is to put noise reduction to low in your TV picture settings. I actually can’t see a difference between low and off in terms of picture quality but it does remove the flickering for some reason.

Great tip, will try that out 👍🏼 Thanks

Mac OS X 10.13 + Mac Mini 2012 iCore5 2.5ghz, 16 Go, SSD drive + iPhone 7 + iPad Air 2 + Apple Watch Series 2 + NVIDIA Shield + Apple TV 4K + LG OLED C7 55"

  November 27, 2017 - 10:11am
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  astirling wrote:

A temporary workaround is to put noise reduction to low in your TV picture settings. I actually can’t see a difference between low and off in terms of picture quality but it does remove the flickering for some reason.

Noise reduction is designed to improve how low quality content displays on your TV. If you're content is generally good, then I'd recommend turning this feature off entirely. In your case, it's likely a false positive due to the combination of video with gradient overlay (which is visible when paused) - it tries to remove these 'artifacts', which are in fact not really artifacts and then gets confused.

Personally, the first thing I do when getting a new TV is to disable all the enhancement features. IMHO, the only thing that was of any value was 'cinemotion' (reverse 3:2 pulldown) for extracting 24p content from a 60Hz signal, but now that auto-switching is here I have that turned off as well.

Also, regarding the original issue, we're working on tracking down the cause and best options for improving things. Stay tuned. Wink

Infuse 6 for iOS and Apple TV is now available!

  November 27, 2017 - 10:43am
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Hi James. I appreciate your reply but I need to respectfully disagree with your assessment. My belief is that there is currently a bug in the Infuse video player which is affecting Oled televisions (E6 and B6 confirmed so far) when playing back SDR content at 24hz.

Regarding noise reduction, I’m heavily into home theatre and always turn off all picture processing when having my sets professionally calibrated. Unfortunately I’m currently forced to use it with infuse because this bug is so distracting that I find it unwatchable without it.

Some points to help with troubleshooting.

  • this issue is visible in all SDR content I have tried on Infuse
  • it is only present on SDR material when played back at 24hz. The problem disappears if I change the refresh rate
  • the issue appears to affect near black areas and presents as a flickering or pulsing in the near black areas
  • the issue is present during playback and when paused
  • the issue is not present if I play back the same file on my shield tv or in plex
  • the issue is not visible in any iTunes content
  • no other content from any other source (uhd Blu Ray, Netflix, Shield tv, in built tv apps) displays this issue
  • one other poster has confirmed the same issue on a different LG oled
  November 27, 2017 - 10:49am
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  astirling wrote:

Hi James. I appreciate your reply but I need to respectfully disagree with your assessment. My belief is that there is currently a bug in the Infuse video player which is affecting Oled televisions (E6 and B6 confirmed so far) when playing back SDR content at 24hz.

Regarding noise reduction, I’m heavily into home theatre and always turn off all picture processing when having my sets professionally calibrated. Unfortunately I’m currently forced to use it with infuse because this bug is so distracting that I find it unwatchable without it.

Some points to help with troubleshooting.

  • this issue is visible in all SDR content I have tried on Infuse
  • it is only present on SDR material when played back at 24hz. The problem disappears if I change the refresh rate
  • the issue appears to affect near black areas and presents as a flickering or pulsing in the near black areas
  • the issue is present during playback and when paused
  • the issue is not present if I play back the same file on my shield tv or in plex
  • the issue is not visible in any iTunes content
  • no other content from any other source (uhd Blu Ray, Netflix, Shield tv, in built tv apps) displays this issue
  • one other poster has confirmed the same issue on a different LG oled

Just to make sure this thread doesn't get to far into the weeds, the issue we are looking into relates to quality differences when playing content that is scaled (EG 1080p video on a 4K panel).

There's a good chance once this is addressed, the false positive detection of your TV may also be avoided...or even better you won't need to have it on at all. Smile

Infuse 6 for iOS and Apple TV is now available!

  November 27, 2017 - 10:58am
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Fingers crossed. I’m just confused by the ‘false positive’ term. The issue only occurs when noise reduction is switched off so I can’t see how it’s being caused by the tv trying to remove unwanted noise.

  November 27, 2017 - 11:01am
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  astirling wrote:

Fingers crossed. I’m just confused by the ‘false positive’ term. The issue only occurs when noise reduction is switched off so I can’t see how it’s being caused by the tv trying to remove unwanted noise.

Sorry, I misread your post. I though you were only seeing this with noise filtering enabled.

Definitely a strange thing to see, but either way it will hopefully be resolved once the core issue is addressed.

Infuse 6 for iOS and Apple TV is now available!

  November 27, 2017 - 12:04pm
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  astirling wrote:

Some points to help with troubleshooting.

  • this issue is visible in all SDR content I have tried on Infuse
  • it is only present on SDR material when played back at 24hz. The problem disappears if I change the refresh rate
  • the issue appears to affect near black areas and presents as a flickering or pulsing in the near black areas
  • the issue is present during playback and when paused
  • the issue is not present if I play back the same file on my shield tv or in plex
  • the issue is not visible in any iTunes content
  • no other content from any other source (uhd Blu Ray, Netflix, Shield tv, in built tv apps) displays this issue
  • one other poster has confirmed the same issue on a different LG oled

This is likely caused by the refresh rate not being what your LG expects, so either it's expecting 24000/1001 Hz and Apple TV is sending 24 Hz, or it's expecting 24 Hz and Apple TV is sending 24000/1001, or something in between, e.g. Apple TV not using a precise 24000/1001 timing.

The technical background here is that your LG probably has a scanning backlight (despite LG and others claiming that OLEDs are so awesome because they wouldn't need a light source, which they still do), and it needs to sync perfectly with the source's refresh rate, otherwise you'll get the artifacts that you described when the backlight does not modulate at the same frequency as the video processor samples. Not unique to LG OLED, though, I've seen the same happen on a Panasonic IPS display, and it only shows when you're displaying a very dark pictures with larger areas near the black.

  November 27, 2017 - 12:11pm
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Why’s it not happening when I use Plex or Mr MC then?

  November 27, 2017 - 12:18pm
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  astirling wrote:

Why’s it not happening when I use Plex or Mr MC then?

Try plugging the Apple TV directly to your LG without passing by anywhere else, and change the Video mode to GAME and see if that makes a difference?

Mac OS X 10.13 + Mac Mini 2012 iCore5 2.5ghz, 16 Go, SSD drive + iPhone 7 + iPad Air 2 + Apple Watch Series 2 + NVIDIA Shield + Apple TV 4K + LG OLED C7 55"

  November 27, 2017 - 12:32pm
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  nickpicker wrote:

The technical background here is that your LG probably has a scanning backlight (despite LG and others claiming that OLEDs are so awesome because they wouldn't need a light source, which they still do), and it needs to sync perfectly with the source's refresh rate, otherwise you'll get the artifacts that you described when the backlight does not modulate at the same frequency as the video processor samples. Not unique to LG OLED, though, I've seen the same happen on a Panasonic IPS display, and it only shows when you're displaying a very dark pictures with larger areas near the black.

No, OLED displays do NOT have a backlight. LG or otherwise. The pixels emit their own light.

  November 27, 2017 - 2:37pm
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  Hoosier317 wrote:

No, OLED displays do NOT have a backlight. LG or otherwise. The pixels emit their own light.

Not true. In the early days OLED displays were promoted as not needing a backlight. But it turned out that without a backlight, OLED screens were not as bright as LCD/LED rivals, so LG silently reintroduced backlights into their models, otherwise they wouldn't be capable of peak luminance that the various HDR standards demand.

It's really the same situation as we had with plasmas, where Panasonic and Samsung were always claiming plasma is superior to LCD because they don't need a backlight - and then quietly introduced backlight to reach higher luminance.

Just because in high-gloss marketing materials OLED wouldn't, in theory, need a backlight doesn't mean manufacturers don't use it. Of course once you take a backlight into the equation, OLED doesn't make sense anymore.

  November 27, 2017 - 2:40pm
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  nickpicker wrote:

Not true. In the early days OLED displays were promoted as not needing a backlight. But it turned out that without a backlight, OLED screens were not as bright as LCD/LED rivals, so LG silently reintroduced backlights into their models, otherwise they wouldn't be capable of peak luminance that the various HDR standards demand.

...no...they did not.

  November 27, 2017 - 2:43pm
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Nitpicker....can you link to a source which supports this claim? Either for oled displays or Panasonic plasmas

  November 27, 2017 - 2:50pm
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  astirling wrote:

Why’s it not happening when I use Plex or Mr MC then?

This is the question that should be adressed. I doubt this has anything to do with LG.

  November 27, 2017 - 2:59pm
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  nickpicker wrote:

Not true. In the early days OLED displays were promoted as not needing a backlight. But it turned out that without a backlight, OLED screens were not as bright as LCD/LED rivals, so LG silently reintroduced backlights into their models, otherwise they wouldn't be capable of peak luminance that the various HDR standards demand.

It's really the same situation as we had with plasmas, where Panasonic and Samsung were always claiming plasma is superior to LCD because they don't need a backlight - and then quietly introduced backlight to reach higher luminance.

Just because in high-gloss marketing materials OLED wouldn't, in theory, need a backlight doesn't mean manufacturers don't use it. Of course once you take a backlight into the equation, OLED doesn't make sense anymore.

LOL

  November 28, 2017 - 3:53pm
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  JMGNYC wrote:

Hi James, thanks for the support but I think I've narrowed it down.

First of all, I've installed the latest update of Infuse and then did side by side comparisons leaving the video running in both Plex (native player) and Infuse and using the task switcher. What I was saying was lack of shadow detail and interpreting as black levels being off is not quite right. It seems to be a sharpening or upscaling issue.

I'm using a 1080p BD rip as the source and the ATK 4K is in 4K SDR mode.

Colors and black scale do seem correct. But Infuse is not as sharp as the native player and that is what was noticeable to me. Perhaps the native player uses a different upscaling algorithm? What does Infuse use for upscaling 1080pto 4K? Or does it not upscale at all and leaves it to the ATV or what exactly?

I’d be a little careful with this. In my opinion the native player overly sharpens when upscaling and this was actually picked up in a few reviews when the atv 4k was released. Just because the native player is sharper doesn’t mean that it’s more accurate.

It would be better to do comparisons with the atv forced to 1080p rather than comparing with an upscaled image on the native player.

  November 28, 2017 - 4:00pm
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+1
Was about to write the same thing.

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  November 29, 2017 - 12:52am
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  astirling wrote:

I’d be a little careful with this. In my opinion the native player overly sharpens when upscaling and this was actually picked up in a few reviews when the atv 4k was released. Just because the native player is sharper doesn’t mean that it’s more accurate.

It would be better to do comparisons with the atv forced to 1080p rather than comparing with an upscaled image on the native player.

It is not even enough sharp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbKCZpQN72c

  November 29, 2017 - 1:00am
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I’m sorry but that’s a separate issue. This thread is focussing on the upscaling quality of the Infuse player. This only comes into effect when upscaling 1080p or lower material to output at 4k. In my opinion the native Apple player applies artificial sharpening when upscaling lower resolution images and I was urging people to make comparisons to how 1080p content on Infuse looks when output at 1080p instead of comparing it to upscaled content from the native player.
The video you link to is comparing streaming 4k iTunes content to high bitrate 4k UHD Blu Ray material. The Apple TV will always lose a bit of detail due to the higher compression used in the stream. There is no way to reinsert this detail on the steaming material because it simply doesn’t exist in the source stream.

  November 29, 2017 - 8:45am
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There are a handful of very well know upscaling algorithms; bilinear, bicubic, lanczos, jinc, catcall rom, etc. each with a few parameters.

What is Infuse using?

Bilinear and Bicubic are universally regarded as pretty poor. After that it becomes a matter of taste to be honest.

I can say without doubt that Infuse is doing a worse job of upscaling than other Apple TV apps, my TV, my BD player, Roku's native player, and of course my HTPC. My guess is that Infuse defaulting to Bilinear.

  November 30, 2017 - 3:36am
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I am following this discussion since few days and I would like to share my experience regarding the upscaling issue. As I bought the apple TV to replace an himedia Q5 mediaplayer, the first thing I did was a picture quality side to side comparison using Infuse on apple TV. I immediately noticed the difference in sharpness (in favor of the Q5) when playing a 1080p mkv file with apple TV set to 4k SDR (my TV is 4K but no HDR). I changed the resolution to 1080p and the sharpness improved so that the two device were almost similar. I did not notice any difference in shrpness when using a 4k mkv file. Yestarday I installed Plex and I repeated the comparison, this time using both infuse and Plex for playing the same 1080p mkv file. From what I could see, no matter if I use plex or infuse, the sharpness is worse if the apple TV is set to 4k SDR, while it improves a lot (to the level of the Q5) if the apple TV resolution is set to 1080p. I can share few pictures if needed. According to my experience it seems more an issue of the apple TV scaler than an issue of the particular player. I understood that with the new TVOS 11.2 the apple TV video resolution (and the refresh rate) will be automatically set according to the source resolution, right? If so, the issue with the sharpness should be solved.

  November 30, 2017 - 3:55am
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Hi.

That’s useful information. Particularly the comparisons to native 1080p output and comparisons to 4k output via plex and infuse.
Sadly the 11.2 software does not auto switch resolution. It only switches frame rate, colour space and dynamic range. So upscaling will still be relevant beyond the next update.

  November 30, 2017 - 4:11am
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  astirling wrote:

Sadly the 11.2 software does not auto switch resolution. It only switches frame rate, colour space and dynamic range. So upscaling will still be relevant beyond the next update.

So close, but yet so far Frown I hoped manual switching was soon to be history, but now it seems we must continue with it. A real shame part 1.

Besides, there's no option for 1080p/24 hz, so if that resolution is picked stuttering will continue when watching 24 hz content. A real shame part 2.

I think I will end up using auto switching for convenience. Then I'll live with a less sharp picture, though it should have been totally unnecessary in 2017.

  November 30, 2017 - 6:11am
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  Videoman wrote:

Besides, there's no option for 1080p/24 hz, so if that resolution is picked stuttering will continue when watching 24 hz content. A real shame part 2.

I think I will end up using auto switching for convenience. Then I'll live with a less sharp picture, though it should have been totally unnecessary in 2017.

Yes, there is actually. At least on the developer beta I’m running on an Apple TV 4K.

  November 30, 2017 - 6:29am
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  pino8579 wrote:

I am following this discussion since few days and I would like to share my experience regarding the upscaling issue. As I bought the apple TV to replace an himedia Q5 mediaplayer, the first thing I did was a picture quality side to side comparison using Infuse on apple TV. I immediately noticed the difference in sharpness (in favor of the Q5) when playing a 1080p mkv file with apple TV set to 4k SDR (my TV is 4K but no HDR). I changed the resolution to 1080p and the sharpness improved so that the two device were almost similar. I did not notice any difference in shrpness when using a 4k mkv file. Yestarday I installed Plex and I repeated the comparison, this time using both infuse and Plex for playing the same 1080p mkv file. From what I could see, no matter if I use plex or infuse, the sharpness is worse if the apple TV is set to 4k SDR, while it improves a lot (to the level of the Q5) if the apple TV resolution is set to 1080p. I can share few pictures if needed. According to my experience it seems more an issue of the apple TV scaler than an issue of the particular player. I understood that with the new TVOS 11.2 the apple TV video resolution (and the refresh rate) will be automatically set according to the source resolution, right? If so, the issue with the sharpness should be solved.

I think what you have proved here by setting the ATV 4K output to 1080p is that your TV does a better job of upscaling than Infuse does. This is basically the original complaint in this thread, namely that Infuse does a terrible job of upscaling vs. the native ATV 4K player or a 4K TV.

  November 30, 2017 - 7:10am
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  JMGNYC wrote:

I think what you have proved here by setting the ATV 4K output to 1080p is that your TV does a better job of upscaling than Infuse does. This is basically the original complaint in this thread, namely that Infuse does a terrible job of upscaling vs. the native ATV 4K player or a 4K TV.

Yes, it seems that TV is upscaling (much) better, however I am not sure it is an issue of Infuse. As said, also Plex shows the same bad sharpness, so, as I understood that Plex is using the native player, I am wondering if the sharpness issue is due to the apple TV itself. BTW, switching between the two resolutions, I have also noticed that the main screen looks sharper when using 1080p

  November 30, 2017 - 8:09am
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  Hoosier317 wrote:

Yes, there is actually. At least on the developer beta I’m running on an Apple TV 4K.

Is it? Perhaps it’s for 1080p TV sets only? Or do you have a 4K TV?