205 posts / 0 new / Last post
  November 30, 2017 - 8:31am
bluskye's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Kudos: 14

FYI, TVOS 11.2 does not support auto resolution switching, only Dynamic Range and Refresh Rate switching

  November 30, 2017 - 10:34am
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37
  JMGNYC wrote:

I think what you have proved here by setting the ATV 4K output to 1080p is that your TV does a better job of upscaling than Infuse does. This is basically the original complaint in this thread, namely that Infuse does a terrible job of upscaling vs. the native ATV 4K player or a 4K TV.

Actually he’s saying that infuse does a similar job to the native player

  November 30, 2017 - 10:35am
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37
  Videoman wrote:

Is it? Perhaps it’s for 1080p TV sets only? Or do you have a 4K TV?

I’ve got a 4k tv and have the 1080p 24hz option. There’s a page of additional hdmi modes and it’s in there

  November 30, 2017 - 11:47am
Hoosier317's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 90
Kudos: 12
  Videoman wrote:

Is it? Perhaps it’s for 1080p TV sets only? Or do you have a 4K TV?

i have it on the latest developer beta, yes.

  November 30, 2017 - 11:55am
cecemf's picture
Offline
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 66
Kudos: 7
  bluskye wrote:

FYI, TVOS 11.2 does not support auto resolution switching, only Dynamic Range and Refresh Rate switching

Only for Apple TV 4K though Wink

Mac OS X 10.13 + Mac Mini 2012 iCore5 2.5ghz, 16 Go, SSD drive + iPhone 7 + iPad Air 2 + Apple Watch Series 2 + NVIDIA Shield + Apple TV 4K + LG OLED C7 55"

  November 30, 2017 - 2:30pm
james's picture
Staff
Offline
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,267
Kudos: 1,247

Update.

We've dug into this a bit more, and after doing pixel-level comparisons feel pretty strongly the native player is adding some artificial sharpening effects to make low quality content appear better than it actually is.

In the coming weeks we'll be looking into a few potential options for mimicking these effects. If a suitable solution is found we will make this available as an optional toggle in Infuse, as an artificial enhancement feature is certainly not something everyone would appreciate having.

The phenomenon observed by astirling seems to be unrelated, and is something we're also looking into.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Infuse 6 for iOS and Apple TV is now available!

  November 30, 2017 - 2:35pm
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37

Really encouraging response. I’m happy with the upscaling quality of infuse so I’m glad that any artificial sharpening will be an option. Smile

  November 30, 2017 - 2:41pm
Videoman's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 130
Kudos: 17

James’ response shows why Infuse is very easy to love.

  November 30, 2017 - 4:29pm
JMGNYC's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 44
Kudos: 7

Sharpening is part of upscaling. See my earlier post about different upscaling algorithms. Except for the very bad bilinear algorithm they all include sharpening.

For example:

1080p source -> Infuse output with ATV set to 1080p -> 4K TV. The 4K TV will add sharpening in this case as part of its upscaling.

Compare the above to 1080p source -> Infuse out with ATV set to 4K -> 4K TV. This is noticeably worse PQ than the above.

However compare 1080p source > Native player with ATV set to 4K - 4K TV IS comparable to 1080p source -> Infuse output with ATV set to 1080p -> 4K TV. In one case the ATV is doing the upscaling/sharpening and the other the 4K TV is doing it and they are comparable.

I am very happy to hear there will be a toggle if turning the toggle on uses a good upscaling algorithm such as lanczos.

"Considering the upscaling algorithms, lanczos-3 and lanczos-3 with sharpening perform the best, then follows bicubic, Catmull and Mitchell."
https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01073920/document

  November 30, 2017 - 4:46pm
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37

I don’t agree that native 1080p is similar to the native player upscaling to 4k. Of course your tv may use a different scaler from mine so your end results might be different.
Also not convinced of the methodology of your cited paper. All viewers were non expert and there’s nothing to indicate they had any knowledge of home cinema. It’s well known that tv manufacturers blow out contrast and use vivid ultra sharp showroom modes to flog their TVs because the tv buying public essentially get wowed by bright shiny things. So just because more people liked some sharpening applied to their upscaling (which is essentially what the paper is saying) this doesn’t mean it produces the best and most accurate picture.
Still....each to their own. This is why tv’s have a sharpness control and why firecore are being very obliging by seeking to add it as an option for those that want it. Personally...I used lanczos and lancsoz-3 on spmc on my shield tv and the output was abysmal. The shield tv may well have been the issue there though to be fair.

  December 2, 2017 - 4:44pm
Videoman's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 130
Kudos: 17
  JMGNYC wrote:

1080p source -> Infuse output with ATV set to 1080p -> 4K TV. The 4K TV will add sharpening in this case as part of its upscaling.

Compare the above to 1080p source -> Infuse out with ATV set to 4K -> 4K TV. This is noticeably worse PQ than the above.

I finally got the chance to test this myself today. I have a LG OLED65B7 and Apple TV 4K. I played a 1080p video in Infuse and tested with Apple TV set to 4K and 1080p output respectively.

There is no doubt that the 1080p output resulted in a significantly sharper and more comfortable image. I therefore hope Infuse gets such an option as James has now suggested, because this is actually quite critical if Infuse is going to be the perfect app we all hope for.

The good news is of course that you can get awesome PQ by manual switching, but the bad news is that manual switching is a pain and not «family friendly».

So please make it happen Smile

  December 2, 2017 - 5:32pm
mrrobotoplus's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 91
Kudos: 9

to me the native player seems not only sharper but also much brighter in highlights (4k SDR).

  December 2, 2017 - 6:24pm
JMGNYC's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 44
Kudos: 7
  astirling wrote:

I don’t agree that native 1080p is similar to the native player upscaling to 4k. Of course your tv may use a different scaler from mine so your end results might be different.
Also not convinced of the methodology of your cited paper. All viewers were non expert and there’s nothing to indicate they had any knowledge of home cinema. It’s well known that tv manufacturers blow out contrast and use vivid ultra sharp showroom modes to flog their TVs because the tv buying public essentially get wowed by bright shiny things. So just because more people liked some sharpening applied to their upscaling (which is essentially what the paper is saying) this doesn’t mean it produces the best and most accurate picture.
Still....each to their own. This is why tv’s have a sharpness control and why firecore are being very obliging by seeking to add it as an option for those that want it. Personally...I used lanczos and lancsoz-3 on spmc on my shield tv and the output was abysmal. The shield tv may well have been the issue there though to be fair.

Have you ever seen madVR in action?

Also, is there really a difference between upscaling and sharpening. Isn't sharpening just one part of upscaling. By definition there is no way to watch 1080p on a 4K without something in the video chain upscaling and hence sharpening the video unless you want it to be just pixel doubled.

The goal of good upscaling is to get 1080p played on 4K to be as clear and sharp as 1080p played on 1080pHD. With Infuse currently playing 1080p on a 1080p display is noticeably better than playing 1080p on 4K and I feel that Infuse can get closer. madVR proves it is possible.

  December 2, 2017 - 7:22pm
bluskye's picture
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Kudos: 14
  JMGNYC wrote:

Have you ever seen madVR in action?

Also, is there really a difference between upscaling and sharpening. Isn't sharpening just one part of upscaling. By definition there is no way to watch 1080p on a 4K without something in the video chain upscaling and hence sharpening the video unless you want it to be just pixel doubled.

The goal of good upscaling is to get 1080p played on 4K to be as clear and sharp as 1080p played on 1080pHD. With Infuse currently playing 1080p on a 1080p display is noticeably better than playing 1080p on 4K and I feel that Infuse can get closer. madVR proves it is possible.

MadVR is a dead project. MadVR is closed source. If you want to contribute, get them to opensource the algorithms so the world can use. Until then, no point talking about it.

  December 2, 2017 - 8:02pm
JMGNYC's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 44
Kudos: 7
  bluskye wrote:

MadVR is a dead project. MadVR is closed source. If you want to contribute, get them to opensource the algorithms so the world can use. Until then, no point talking about it.

I am not suggesting madVR be used in anyway. I am using it as an example of quality up scaling and in support of not just playing 1080p on a 4K display without alteration.

  December 4, 2017 - 4:56am
Videoman's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 130
Kudos: 17
  james wrote:

We've dug into this a bit more, and after doing pixel-level comparisons feel pretty strongly the native player is adding some artificial sharpening effects to make low quality content appear better than it actually is.

One thing, since I think this is a bit difficult to understand.

Does what you say (indirectly) mean that different 4K TVs also add the same type of artificial sharpening effects as the Apple TV native player when upscaling a 1080p file to a 2160p screen? Because, if I set the Apple TV to 1080p output when playing a 1080p file through Infuse, the picture quality becomes significantly better than if I have the Apple TV set to 2160p output. And in the first case it's my LG TV that does the upscaling, right?

On my part, perceived picture quality is the essential, not what is objectively "correct". If it looks better it IS better, cause looking is all I do.

If both TVs and Apple TV, respectively, succeed with their upscaling in the way that perceived picture quality gets significantly better, I really hope that Infuse will include the same type of artificial sharpening effects as an option. Cause in the end it's what I perceive that matters, even if my eyes/brain are actually being fooled.

  December 4, 2017 - 5:01am
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37

I think this issue is that what is ‘better’ is subjective. Some people have their sets calibrated because it displays things as the director intended. Others think that a calibrated image is too dull and prefer things brighter.

  December 4, 2017 - 5:13am
Videoman's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 130
Kudos: 17
  astirling wrote:

I think this issue is that what is ‘better’ is subjective. Some people have their sets calibrated because it displays things as the director intended. Others think that a calibrated image is too dull and prefer things brighter.

I totally agree that "better" is subjective. But in my case it's not brightness that makes it better. It's that the picture looks sharper and more natural, and thus is more pleasant and "right" to watch for my eyes. I will compare it to when I put on glasses and sort of get a feeling of relief. It could be that i get "fooled", though, from an objective perspective.

However, I guess if both LG, Samsung, Apple and others "fool" people with artificial effects, it's for a reason. And that reason is most likely that a lot of people actually prefer it, and that these people easily outnumber the purists. In the end it's just a matter of taste. Some like rock. Some like pop. No problem. But let's include them all.

I think the right strategic choice for Infuse in such a situation is to make this optional, so that the app in the future can appeal to both "regular people" and "purists". If not, Infuse can worst case end up being a niche app for purists.

  December 4, 2017 - 5:25am
mrrobotoplus's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 91
Kudos: 9

Even professional scalers like Lumagen has its own algorithm to enhance image details. So i don't understand why you guys are saying that purists would hate that on Infuse.

  

Scaling quality again comes to the forefront with the advent of 4k projectors and televisions. Lumagen’s NoRingTM scaling provides the best quality scaling for 1080, 720, and SD, sources for 4k projectors and TVs. Unlike other scaling technology Lumagen’s NoRing scaling does not add “halos” around edges caused by the ringing in other scaling algorithms.

And take a look at the attachment.

Attachments: 
  December 4, 2017 - 5:43am
Videoman's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 130
Kudos: 17
  mrrobotoplus wrote:

And take a look at the attachment.

Your attachment is kind of representative of what I experience when switching the Apple TV settings from 2160p output to 1080p output for 1080p files, but on my TV the difference is a bit more subtle. The enhancement in the attachment is, to my liking, on the verge of becoming too expressive. I would pick something in the middle.

  December 4, 2017 - 5:49am
mrrobotoplus's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 91
Kudos: 9
  Videoman wrote:

Your attachment is kind of representative of what I experience when switching the Apple TV settings from 2160p output to 1080p output for 1080p files, but on my TV the difference is a bit more subtle. The enhancement in the attachment is, to my liking, on the verge of becoming too expressive. I would pick something in the middle.

That's implemented in one of the best scaler in the world used by Pro Calibrators and Home Theatre Enthusiasts. Its price is half of an Oled tv.

  December 4, 2017 - 5:55am
Videoman's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 130
Kudos: 17

Okay. I don't know what upscaling algorithm LG uses for it's OLED TVs, but I think it works really fine with my 1080p movies.

  December 4, 2017 - 5:58am
mrrobotoplus's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 91
Kudos: 9

yeah, my point is that detail enhancer in infuse, which is not a simple sharpen filter to toggle ON/OFF, should be already there and not as an option.

  December 4, 2017 - 6:05am
Videoman's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 130
Kudos: 17
  mrrobotoplus wrote:

yeah, my point is that detail enhancer in infuse, which is not a simple sharpen filter to toggle ON/OFF, should be already there and not as an option.

I get your point, and for me such an enhancer would lift Infuse from being close to being the perfect home theatre solution. This is my number 1 wish for Infuse now. Really hope James and crew will give this top priority.

  December 4, 2017 - 6:37am
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37
  mrrobotoplus wrote:

yeah, my point is that detail enhancer in infuse, which is not a simple sharpen filter to toggle ON/OFF, should be already there and not as an option.

Why on earth would you object to it being an option?

  December 4, 2017 - 6:41am
mrrobotoplus's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 91
Kudos: 9
  astirling wrote:

Why on earth would you object to it being an option?

1 - too many options are.. BAD
2 - it's not a filter, it is part of the upscaler algorithm. Detail Enhancer != Sharpen.

  December 4, 2017 - 6:45am
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37

Nonsense. What you’re saying is ‘I prefer my picture this way so everyone else had better like it too.’

Optional sharpening is completely acceptable in my opinion. Sharpening shoved down everyone’s throat is not.

My tv has a slider where sharpening can be set from 0 to 100. I have it set to zero and I’m coping fine with that being an option.

  December 4, 2017 - 6:47am
mrrobotoplus's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 91
Kudos: 9
  astirling wrote:

Nonsense. What you’re saying is ‘I prefer my picture this way so everyone else had better like it too.’

Optional sharpening is completely acceptable in my opinion. Sharpening shoved down everyone’s throat is not.

My tv has a slider where sharpening can be set from 0 to 100. I have it set to zero and I’m coping fine with that being an option.

again, you are talking about sharpening. i am not.

  December 8, 2017 - 2:45am
Alf_300's picture
Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 29
Kudos: 9

What happened to this issue?
The status is not ‚pending‘ anymore, but it’s not fixed?

  December 8, 2017 - 2:58am
astirling's picture
Beta Tester
Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 153
Kudos: 37

I guess the view is that it isn’t a bug. There is a recognition that the current upscaling method is not to everyone’s liking although it is to others. James has indicated that they will look to implement an optional alternative upscaling method for those who are unsatisfied.