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  April 27, 2018 - 4:07am
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  james wrote:

This is most definitely a side effect of some other feature change, and not something they removed intentionally.

We remain hopefully they will be able to get it resolved soon.

That sounds promising, I'll hold off raising a ticket until Apple respond.

  April 29, 2018 - 5:20am
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  james wrote:

Apple is a large company, and likely receives hundreds if not thousands of bug reports every day. Each report is somewhat compartmentalized to a specific department, so it's unlikely anyone outside the group responsible for looking into that specific issue would have (or need) access. I can assure you the bug was most definitely reported, and we did receive a response.

Also, if your receiver doesn't support 6ch PCM, then the Apple TV should gracefully switch to Dolby Digital or stereo, depending on what the Apple TV thinks your receiver can support. If you prefer, you can force Dolby Digital (AC3) by switching from Best Quality Available to Dolby Digital in Settings > Video and Audio > Surround Sound.

235/5000
Apple returned with the phone. The problem is caused by 3rd party software and it says to contact the software developer. He insists that you issue a new update and solve the problem. He says there is no problem with Apple.

  April 29, 2018 - 11:18am
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Nonsense of Apple the VLC also does not work with Passtrough!

  April 29, 2018 - 11:42am
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  serif83 wrote:

235/5000
Apple returned with the phone. The problem is caused by 3rd party software and it says to contact the software developer. He insists that you issue a new update and solve the problem. He says there is no problem with Apple.

It's already been confirmed on Apple's end as far as the problem. We're just waiting either on a work around from Firecore, or a fix from Apple. James has already confirmed the communication between Firecore and Apple. He has also confirmed that Apple has asked for diagnostic data via logs and other information, which would suggest a bug rather then an intentional decision to remove the feature.

  April 29, 2018 - 11:54am
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  serif83 wrote:

235/5000
Apple returned with the phone. The problem is caused by 3rd party software and it says to contact the software developer. He insists that you issue a new update and solve the problem. He says there is no problem with Apple.

You have been misinformed by whoever you talked to at Apple, no app can do passthrough currently, this is an Apple problem to fix since TVOS 11.3.

  April 30, 2018 - 3:13pm
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  timstephens24 wrote:

There's no audio quality lost when you do PCM. The only thing you lose is the light/words on the receiver that say DTS/AC3. You actually gain quality since you're using the lossless DTS-HD MA track vs the lossy DTS core (or the lossless TrueHD track instead of a lossy AC3/EAC3 track) when you use Auto instead of passthrough.

How do you figure there is no loss? You should not tell people that as it is wrong. To be fairly honest I am sure the digital to analog converters in my receiver can do a better job decoding to pcm then infuse does. They do a good job at infuse but I am sure they will be able to admit that the decoding might not be as good as a high end DAC chip. This is why I would prefer that Apple adds a pass through option.

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  April 30, 2018 - 3:51pm
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  Azurisk wrote:

How do you figure there is no loss? You should not tell people that as it is wrong. To be fairly honest I am sure the digital to analog converters in my receiver can do a better job decoding to pcm then infuse does. They do a good job at infuse but I am sure they will be able to admit that the decoding might not be as good as a high end DAC chip. This is why I would prefer that Apple adds a pass through option.

Just to clarify, the digital-to-analog process is still performed by the AV receiver - that is, converting the digital signal (PCM) to an analog sound your ears can hear.

The process of decoding (decompressing) Dolby or DTS into an uncompressed digital format like PCM is standardized, and will be the same on any certified device - no matter if your receiver's price tag is $300 or $3000. The benefits added by high-end receivers come into play after this decoding process takes place. Smile

Infuse 6 for iOS and Apple TV is now available!

  April 30, 2018 - 4:02pm
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  james wrote:

Just to clarify, the digital-to-analog process is still performed by the AV receiver - that is, converting the digital signal (PCM) to analog sound waves your ears can hear.

The process of decoding (decompressing) Dolby or DTS into an uncompressed digital format like PCM is standardized, and will be the same on any certified device - no matter if your receiver's price tag is $300 or $3000. The benefits added by high-end receivers come into play after this decoding process takes place. Smile

James it's been fairly quite, have you at Firecore heard back from Apple after the initial data exchange of logs and other diagnostics? Anything enough to be able to say if a solution is in the works yet ?

  April 30, 2018 - 4:08pm
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  iFrog wrote:

James it's been fairly quite, have you at Firecore heard back from Apple after the initial data exchange of logs and other diagnostics? Anything enough to be able to say if a solution is in the works yet ?

Nothing yet, but typically Apple will reply with 1 of 3 responses.

  1. Won't fix
  2. Need more info
  3. Fixed (usually sent weeks or months after the fix has been made public)

We already received reply #2, so at this point no news is good news. Smile

Infuse 6 for iOS and Apple TV is now available!

  April 30, 2018 - 4:17pm
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  james wrote:

Nothing yet, but typically Apple will reply with 1 of 3 responses.

  1. Won't fix
  2. Need more info
  3. Fixed (usually sent weeks or months after the fix has been made public)

We already received reply #2, so at this point no news is good news. Smile

Yep, Not really worried here, just wanted to keep tabs. I'm using my Apple TVs mainly for stuff that doesn't have specific audio needs until I hear something. Currently using my other working devices for the specific needs

  April 30, 2018 - 5:32pm
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  james wrote:

Just to clarify, the digital-to-analog process is still performed by the AV receiver - that is, converting the digital signal (PCM) to an analog sound your ears can hear.

The process of decoding (decompressing) Dolby or DTS into an uncompressed digital format like PCM is standardized, and will be the same on any certified device - no matter if your receiver's price tag is $300 or $3000. The benefits added by high-end receivers come into play after this decoding process takes place. Smile

Well the proces should be the same. The fact that it is standardized says nothing. Just look at how well standards like for example hdmi cec work. If standards would work there would also be no hdmi handshake errors etc. Due to this there can be an audible difference between decoding in the source or the receiver/processor. Next to the fact that the signal travels along a different signal path in a receiver when sent using pcm. There is definitely a difference in decoding in different hardware setup. If only because of electronics fault tolerances. Components regularly have a 5-10% error margin. Imagine a machine with hundreds of components with such a fault margin. This is why no machine behaves exactly alike. Not to mention the effect on jitter when sending out pcm instead of bitstream.

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  April 30, 2018 - 6:30pm
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  Azurisk wrote:

How do you figure there is no loss? You should not tell people that as it is wrong. To be fairly honest I am sure the digital to analog converters in my receiver can do a better job decoding to pcm then infuse does. They do a good job at infuse but I am sure they will be able to admit that the decoding might not be as good as a high end DAC chip. This is why I would prefer that Apple adds a pass through option.

I think we would all prefer the option of passthrough, then we also get Atmos and DTS:X. For everything else the audio is the same.

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  May 1, 2018 - 4:06am
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  timstephens24 wrote:

I think we would all prefer the option of passthrough, then we also get Atmos and DTS:X. For everything else the audio is the same.

In a world where every chip that does decoding yields the exact same results. In a real world scenario there are differences in chipsets. Let alone manufacturer integration. These chips perform optimal under certain conditions, most manufacturers do not adhere to these optimum values.
Just have a look at page 7 and beyond in this document for some example requirements. The chips work with voltages under or above the ideal voltage. But then performance is affected. http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm3168a.pdf

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  May 1, 2018 - 4:38am
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  Azurisk wrote:

In a world where every chip that does decoding yields the exact same results. In a real world scenario there are differences in chipsets. Let alone manufacturer integration. These chips perform optimal under certain conditions, most manufacturers do not adhere to these optimum values.
Just have a look at page 7 and beyond in this document for some example requirements. The chips work with voltages under or above the ideal voltage. But then performance is affected. http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm3168a.pdf

@Azurisk: You seem like you know what you want, and you have the experience needed to put together a nice setup. I am curious as to why you would choose the Apple TV here, iTunes content doesn't carry lossless audio, and while programs like inFuse are available, wouldn't you be much happier with a higher end device that was designed with these features in mind? That's the one thing I don't understand about people here is why depend on Apple for this when there are better options. Yes, I have 2 Apple TVs myself 4, and 4K, but I didn't buy them with these expectations.

  May 1, 2018 - 6:25am
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  iFrog wrote:

@Azurisk: You seem like you know what you want, and you have the experience needed to put together a nice setup. I am curious as to why you would choose the Apple TV here, iTunes content doesn't carry lossless audio, and while programs like inFuse are available, wouldn't you be much happier with a higher end device that was designed with these features in mind? That's the one thing I don't understand about people here is why depend on Apple for this when there are better options. Yes, I have 2 Apple TVs myself 4, and 4K, but I didn't buy them with these expectations.

I did not buy it with high expectations. But I do know there can be an audible difference between decoding on source device or on receiver. Saying all pcm output or all decoders are identical is wrong, plain and simple. Regarding the choice for appletv is quite simple, huge library of Dolby Vision content. Often an iTunes release is in Dooby Vision whilst disc based media is often in hdr10.

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  May 1, 2018 - 6:26am
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  Azurisk wrote:

I did not buy it with high expectations. But I do know there can be an audible difference between decoding on source device or on receiver. Saying all pcm output or all decoders are identical is wrong, plain and simple. Regarding the choice for appletv is quite simple, huge library of Dolby Vision content. Often an iTunes release is in Dolby Vision whilst disc based media is often in hdr10.

*something went wrong here Smile

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  May 1, 2018 - 6:40am
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  Azurisk wrote:

I did not buy it with high expectations. But I do know there can be an audible difference between decoding on source device or on receiver. Saying all pcm output or all decoders are identical is wrong, plain and simple. Regarding the choice for appletv is quite simple, huge library of Dolby Vision content. Often an iTunes release is in Dooby Vision whilst disc based media is often in hdr10.

Understood on all parts, and I agree it's not accurate to compare audio output saying it's the same on all devices. Comparing on the same device is a more accurate way. As far as dolby Vision, I can't comment as my display is HDR10 only, but disc based content is starting to include both.

When I went to Best Buy to get my speaker stands, I talked to someone from their Home theater department and asked based on being visually impaired If I would notice much difference between HDR10, and Dolby Vision vs HD vs SD vs HDR vs SDR and he said I would most likely not notice much difference. Likewise, I asked about a full AVR setup vs a 5.1 setup via a sound bar and wireless speakers and he said for a setup my size and style, the main difference I would experience is a little more separation on the front speakers.

  May 1, 2018 - 7:54am
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  Azurisk wrote:

I did not buy it with high expectations. But I do know there can be an audible difference between decoding on source device or on receiver. Saying all pcm output or all decoders are identical is wrong, plain and simple. Regarding the choice for appletv is quite simple, huge library of Dolby Vision content. Often an iTunes release is in Dooby Vision whilst disc based media is often in hdr10.

Please stop misinforming forum users. What you wrote there is the same as saying "It starts raining because the streets are wet."

Yes, there are certain receivers that apply post-processing to PCM signals, notably Denon's higher-end receivers. But this has nothing to do with "audible difference between decoding on source device or on receiver". Infuse uses certified DTS-HD/TrueHD decoders straight from the vendors, and all receivers on the market use decoding chips certified by the same bodies, so the decoded PCM will be bit-identical. What happens to the PCM stream in the receiver is a totally different matter, and it's up for debate whether the "audible difference" that Denon applies to PCM input vs. internal decoding is a deterioration or improvement.

  May 1, 2018 - 9:37am
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  nickpicker wrote:

Please stop misinforming forum users. What you wrote there is the same as saying "It starts raining because the streets are wet."

Yes, there are certain receivers that apply post-processing to PCM signals, notably Denon's higher-end receivers. But this has nothing to do with "audible difference between decoding on source device or on receiver". Infuse uses certified DTS-HD/TrueHD decoders straight from the vendors, and all receivers on the market use decoding chips certified by the same bodies, so the decoded PCM will be bit-identical. What happens to the PCM stream in the receiver is a totally different matter, and it's up for debate whether the "audible difference" that Denon applies to PCM input vs. internal decoding is a deterioration or improvement.

I’m not talking about post processing. There are many vendors who all take a different approach to reaching the same goal. You are pretty ignorant if you think all PCM streams are output the same. Read my previous post about electronics intolerances or even human error in design. These things are audible and measurable. Go talk to an electrical engineer as to how component intolerances can influence chip efficiency and thus it’s output.

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  May 1, 2018 - 11:09am
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  Azurisk wrote:

I’m not talking about post processing. There are many vendors who all take a different approach to reaching the same goal. You are pretty ignorant if you think all PCM streams are output the same. Read my previous post about electronics intolerances or even human error in design. These things are audible and measurable. Go talk to an electrical engineer as to how component intolerances can influence chip efficiency and thus it’s output.

Your appeal to authority doesn't change the fact that your claim that audio streams decoded on the receiver would result in a different PCM stream than audio streams decoded in Infuse's reference DTS-HD/TrueHD decoders is untrue. They are bit-identical. And I don't have to "talk to an electrical engineer", I have more than a decade of professional experience as a developer of a/v solutions.

I sincerely hope that your "advise" in this forum is ignored. You are doing more harm than good by misleading people into thinking that letting Infuse decode HD audio streams to PCM would somehow be inferior to what a receiver would do with the same HD audio stream.

  May 1, 2018 - 11:25am
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As an attempt to debunk this conflict, TVOS 11.4 3rd beta seeded today, while I'm not running the public beta, was curious if passthrough has been fixed?

  May 1, 2018 - 11:41am
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omg, I cannot believe this thread.

DTS-HD/TrueHD are simply compression codecs. Anything can un-compress the data as long as you have the license and the software to do so, its all the same. Data in = Data out, completely lossless. You may as well argue what's a better unzipper, Winzip or Unrar.... hint, they output the same data from the same zip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD_Master_Audio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codec

As for what your receivers do with the LPCM is probably unique to each receiver.

  May 1, 2018 - 12:56pm
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  iFrog wrote:

As an attempt to debunk this conflict, TVOS 11.4 3rd beta seeded today, while I'm not running the public beta, was curious if passthrough has been fixed?

Just ran a test on tvOS 11.4 beta 3 just now and I regret to inform that the passthrough is AWOL

  May 1, 2018 - 1:09pm
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  sputnik65 wrote:

Just ran a test on tvOS 11.4 beta 3 just now and I regret to inform that the passthrough is AWOL

Thank you for letting us know. At least Apple knows, and it could be something easily repaired, or could have become a deeper problem.

  May 1, 2018 - 1:41pm
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Can anyone tell me, if getting Apple's lightning to HDMI adapter, and connecting an iPad to the home theater setup is an a reliable alternative to testing InFuse's passthrough feature? I am curious if iOS has the same issues as TVOS.

  May 1, 2018 - 3:00pm
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Passthrough isn’t necessary. Auto is the correct setting.

  May 1, 2018 - 3:14pm
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  Hoosier317 wrote:

Passthrough isn’t necessary. Auto is the correct setting.

If that was in answer to my question, I want to test passthrough from an iPad on my 4k Setup where it's not possible to give the Apple TV a direct connection to audio's HDMI input. So it has to go through optical. Setting the Apple TV to dolby digital 5.1 gives me 5.1 audio, but I don't want to listen to DTS audio as dolby. I want to at least get standard DTS.. The setup where I do have the Apple TV directly connected by HDMI works fine with auto, except for DVD rips and AC3 audio. DTS plays fine with an MPeg2Video track, but Ac3 channels are mapped wrong. I did some troubleshooting with James and narrowed down the specifics. Since the Apple TV is currently not allowing Infuse to fully function for me, I want to try the version for the iPad to see if I get difference results. I wanted to find out if anyone has tried this via HDMI from an iPad lighting to HDMI adapter.
My issue here isn't PCM, my issue is 1 compressed format being transcoded into another compressed format, it doesn't sound clear in the end result.

  May 3, 2018 - 11:09am
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  Hoosier317 wrote:

Passthrough isn’t necessary. Auto is the correct setting.

Absolutely not! I've a Sony Soundbar and with auto setting I listen the voice in the right speaker and the sound in the left and center. Damn!

  May 3, 2018 - 2:52pm
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  axelv73 wrote:

Absolutely not! I've a Sony Soundbar and with auto setting I listen the voice in the right speaker and the sound in the left and center. Damn!

Yip, similar to my issue

  May 4, 2018 - 4:29am
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  axelv73 wrote:

Absolutely not! I've a Sony Soundbar and with auto setting I listen the voice in the right speaker and the sound in the left and center. Damn!

I have (2017 5.1 Vizio sound bars) that do the same thing. I have narrowed down that I only get the issue with playing AC3 audio and Mpeg2 video combinations (e.g. DVD rips). I can solve that one of two ways:

  1. Set the Apple TV from best to do Dolby digital 5.1, and InFuse to Auto
  2. Leave The Apple TV set to Best Quality and InFuse to auto, and change the the audio track from Dolby to DTS, (if available)

If no DTS track is available with your content, then option 1, should fix the incorrect channel mapping.
I have found most other HD formats such as h.264, VC-1 etc with audio play fine as PCM 5.1. I can't comment on HEVC rips, as I don't have any.